pins recent thoughts on first timer dosing

[pincrusher]

ok i have been thinking quite a bit about this lately and here are some of my thoughts:
lately i see a trend where everyone is recommending 500mg as a starting disage for a newbie doing their first ever cycle. is this amount really needed?????? i dont think so and here is why.
back in the days of arnold steroids were around and were used but the dosages they used back then were paltry in comparison to what even beginners are using today. why? i really think it has to do with the fact that since they were not as easy to get back then(no internet) the bodybuilders had to rely on nutrition and other supplementation to gain muscle. they learned how to manipulate their bodies through nutritional intake variation rather than relying on drugs. most people i talk to who are new and complaining about not being able to gain muscle without using gear, have no idea about how much food they really need to eat to pack on the lbs of muscle. you must literally force feed yourself meaning that many times you will not want to take those last few bites or eat that between meal snack(protein shake). how many times lately have we referred new members to the how to eat to gain thread on this site. instead we just recommend a starting dosage of 500mg of test enanthate. when was the last time any of us made the newbie wanting to start gear, post their entire meal plan for a day or week with ALL the appropriate nutritional values attached?
we all say that the nutritional part is the most important but i would like to see us focus more on talking about what the person is going to eat instead of how much they are going to inject. lets get with it and start focusing more on the food part and less on the gear and start making ALL newbies psot their food plan with appropriate nutritional values and dont just let them tell us they have that part covered or they know how much to eat, i say prove it to me first before i will believe you....pin
here is the link to the bulking diet thread started by heavy:
http://www.anasci.org/vB/showthread.php?t=2301

 

[mr.nitrofish]

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[duranm]

tru dat, you need to eat a shit load. i easiliy gain weight on steroids b/c ive had a great diet background of 2-3 years of bulking naturally eating 12 eggs a day with lots of milk and other foods. that really helps. and lifting heavy for 2 years. when i took a cycle i gained 30 pounds in 5 weeks and i cut my cycle in half from 10 to 5.

my other friend never lifted heavy or had the same diet as i only gained 16 pounds from the same steroids from the same dealer. and he did a full 8-10 week cycle with the same dosage of steroids.

kinda makes sense that the diet and training plays the bigger role.

 

[tee]

I agree that most people take too many AAS, or too high of a dose. I try to keep mine to a minimum and still grow. Like Pin said, diet is the key. I have heard stories about the pros not taking very much back during Arnold's time, but I don't know how much or what to believe. Many years back, my friend was on the edge of turning pro. He was backstage speaking with Sergio Olivia and told him what he was cycling. Sergio laughed at him and basically told him he would need to at least triple what he was taking to even consider making it to the pro level. At that time, my buddy was taking 800mg of test, with 400 mg Deca, & Dbol.

 

[Andrew]

I agree that I should talk more about nutrition with newbies. The problem is the resistance newbies have to talking about diet makes it less fun. Most people interested in sports or health think they are diet experts. Its not true and I plan on emphasizing diet more with people asking for advice.

 

[Blackbird]

I agree that diet is important, however I have to make a few points.
1 Who is to say what was available in the 70's, sure there was no internet but if you were a competitive bodybuilder I'm sure you could get gear with no problem. 2. Too often those who want to use gear are given advice that is geared toward bodybuilders rather than the average gym rat who wants to get some extra size. Therefore if pro's can protect their health why can't the average guy use as much or as little as long as he is protecting his health? 3. Those who can gain massive size by eating 5000 calories ed and not wind up dying of a heart attack or looking like shit are usually genetic exceptions, not the rule. Just my opinion.

 

[Blackbird]

another thought

I thought every newbie was told to check his diet first. More often than not newbies are told "not" to use gear. Also, I have seen some of the amounts that some of the vets take and if you don't plan on competing, I don't see the point in taking some of the doses that I have seen out there. It is obscene. I don't mean to sound like a prick but there seems to be a hint of soapboxing and hypocrisy floating around sometimes. But hey I love you guys, you know your stuff and I respect the hell out of you. I wouldn't be where I am without each one of you.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I agree that diet is important, however I have to make a few points.
1 Who is to say what was available in the 70's, sure there was no internet but if you were a competitive bodybuilder I'm sure you could get gear with no problem. 2. Too often those who want to use gear are given advice that is geared toward bodybuilders rather than the average gym rat who wants to get some extra size. Therefore if pro's can protect their health why can't the average guy use as much or as little as long as he is protecting his health? 3. Those who can gain massive size by eating 5000 calories ed and not wind up dying of a heart attack or looking like shit are usually genetic exceptions, not the rule. Just my opinion.

Blackbird I agree 100% with you on this one all I ever hear on a lot of forums is for the newbie’s to eat right and exercise. Witch is good advice but then they snuff you off and tell you to come back in a year or so and ask.

Or they will say read the forums and check your diet! Witch is good but some guys can’t eat like pin. Some of the other gentlemen on here can but it’s a small amount that really can eat a lot. “Just like there training”

If we turn down guys because of there diets then we are bad. Because they will do it anyway and they still need good advice on what to take and what not to take. I for one eat about 7 times a day but still no where near the amount I should eat. My body just tells me I cant and I really don't want to stuff it in. It’s a bad feeling after.

 

[wolfyEVH]

i think the 500mg is said because its relative inexpensive, and it can produce solid gains w/o having a VERY strict diet. I mean, we are all human. Many have school, jobs, families, financial problems, etc that are more important first and sometimes its hard to have the perfect diet for your cycle. I am guilty of not always eating enough sometimes...we all are.....yeah some people can get great results off of 250-400mg of gear......but may as well add that extra little bit to an even half a gram a week. its easy to dose, and it does produce great results. I would personally recommend an amount of gear to use by a person's weight and experience. If its your first cycle, and you're about 320lbs 6'5", then I wouldn't do any less than 500mg/week. If you're 5'5" and 150, 300-400mg week would be plenty i think.

also note that no matter what we tell them, they will almost always cycle regardless. We do our part in trying to tell them that diet is way more important that steroids. If they don't listen, then they'll just have to learn from their mistakes.

 

[Captain Canuck]

i think the 500mg is said because its relative inexpensive, and it can produce solid gains w/o having a VERY strict diet. I mean, we are all human. Many have school, jobs, families, financial problems, etc that are more important first and sometimes its hard to have the perfect diet for your cycle. I am guilty of not always eating enough sometimes...we all are.....yeah some people can get great results off of 250-400mg of gear......but may as well add that extra little bit to an even half a gram a week. its easy to dose, and it does produce great results. I would personally recommend an amount of gear to use by a person's weight and experience. If its your first cycle, and you're about 320lbs 6'5", then I wouldn't do any less than 500mg/week. If you're 5'5" and 150, 300-400mg week would be plenty i think.

also note that no matter what we tell them, they will almost always cycle regardless. We do our part in trying to tell them that diet is way more important that steroids. If they don't listen, then they'll just have to learn from their mistakes.

Well said wolfyEVH !!!!!

I am in the middle I am about 6 ft 210 lbs and I have tried 250 test e a week and also tried 750 test e mg a week. It is a big different and I gained 35 lbs on 750 test e a week.

 

[NeverBigEnuff]

I am indeed a newbie here at Anasci, and until I joined I pretty much figured I knew what I needed to know. Unfortunately for me my first few cycles were dictated by a friend with good intentions, but not a whole lot of knowledge. After spending many hours lately reading thru the various message forums here I realized I'm lucky that I didn't f***k myself up real good. Wish there had been an Anasci back in those days, but, ummm...I'm not even sure there was an Internet. Well, must be the Holiday spirit or sumpin, but thanks to everyone who offers the good advice and to everyone who asks the good questions.

 

[ben johnson]

i like "Neverbigenough" had a buddy dictating what i took as far as the "QV" cyles that i took (2), and i to am very lucky that i did not really fuc* myself up. i have read and done some research and asked alot of questions. i am so glad that i found this site. Y?? u have all asked about me....my stats and also preached about diet, proper workouts and pct. all of this i never really knew b 4 and i thank u all for the great advice kuz ive learned so much and i still dont know very much i feel but im gettin there. ive become so anal about nutrition i went and bought a scale and i measure everything and count everything....i saw some pics of Tee and have spoken to Pin and kenzie and u all have really given me the motivation that it can be done if ya want it.

 

[ben johnson]

i was not finished and i hit the wrong key....BUT a person needs to listen to these men and women who basically run this site with their advice KUZ IT WORKS!!! and THEY KNOW WHAT THEY R TALKIN ABOUT. so if any newbies r readin this thread man u better listen to what your eyes r readin or u could be in a bad way in the end. KUDDOS TO YOU ALL AND MERRY XMAS...

 

[Nitrateman]

I think that we walk a fine line here. The board provides the best advice for newbies with regards to diet, exercise and supplements of every kind. The more specific the questions asked, the more specific the answers. Worked wonders for me and I thank you all for my progress and my health.

However, we risk allienating newbies and future clients if we become Roid Nazis. Most newbies come here in various states of confusion and excitement, but as many as are open to the info provided here, there are some who figure they pretty much know it all already. True all won't stay for the Roid Enlightenment course, but I hate to see them going off to some of those other uninformed unscrupulous sites/boards, and we have all seen many of them.

Like I said, I think that we walk a fine line, but if we continue to emphasize openness, honesty and comprehensive bb info on its every aspect from aas to diet to exercise to mental strength, then I think we are on the right path.
That being said, I am totally in favour of different approaches to getting the info out. Soft peddling works with some, but playing bad cop may work for the next guy.

My .02

Nitrateman

 

[pincrusher]

i think everyone is missing my point here. what i am trying to say is not that we need to tell people to worry about diet and not take gear but rather we must make sure that when setting up a cycle for a newbie we make sure we go over the diet for them as specifically as possible.
people are going to juice whether we feel it is best for them or not but if that is the case, why not make sure they are putting themselves in the best position to have a productive cycle.
ok now i will respond to blackbird:
you spaek about not everyone being able to eat like myself or some of the other big boys on here but let me elaborate on this issue. if you use larger amounts of gear like yourself and wolfy state to make up for nutritional deficiencies what do you think is going to happen once you come off cycle. this is only setting up your body to loose the gains because you body is becoming gear dependant to increase size and maintain it. if someone can use 300mg of test enanthate per week but eat an extra 500cals & 50 grams of protein versus using 500mg of test and eatting less, who is going to have the harder time keeping gains during pct. this is also a reason why i see more and more people asking about bridging between cycles. bridging is only an excuse to not come completely off gear because you body is to dependant on it to maintain its current size because of undernurishment.

i use very high dosages because of a schedule deficiancy(lack of proper sleep times) and because i have been juicing for a long time and my body just does not react to low dosages anymore. a newbie does not have the excuse of lack of response to gear dosages because they have not used yet or ran a half assed cycle.
i guarantee that if someone on here was running a first time cycle and the popular consensus was for them to run 500mg per week of test, i could have them take a lower amount, listen to exactly what i tell them food intake wise and they will gain more with my lower dosage then at the higher one. there is a on-line trainer that some of you may have heard of or know who goes by the name of doggcrapp and he deals mainly with nutritional deficiencies and not as much on how much gear you take. he has the uncanny ability to take someone who has been training and juicing for years and claims to have reached they plateau or maximum weight limits and within 6 months as long as they follow his advice to a T they will see their largest gains ever regardless of whether they are taking gear or not. it is all about how badly you want to grow and not so much how easy you want to make it. the easy route is to take large dosages of gear but loose it all once you stop because you cant eat enough to maintain any kind of size. if you want it bad enough you will learn how to eat and force yourself to eat more than ever before just like doggcrapp teaches his trainee's to do!!!

 

[steve0085]

the problem lies here. Most newbies come on and ask how much gear to take, we say is your diet good? We tell them to try eating more before going on gear, they just look up old posts saying 500mg, so they do it anyways.

 

[Captain Canuck]

i think everyone is missing my point here. what i am trying to say is not that we need to tell people to worry about diet and not take gear but rather we must make sure that when setting up a cycle for a newbie we make sure we go over the diet for them as specifically as possible.
people are going to juice whether we feel it is best for them or not but if that is the case, why not make sure they are putting themselves in the best position to have a productive cycle.
ok now i will respond to blackbird:
you spaek about not everyone being able to eat like myself or some of the other big boys on here but let me elaborate on this issue. if you use larger amounts of gear like yourself and wolfy state to make up for nutritional deficiencies what do you think is going to happen once you come off cycle. this is only setting up your body to loose the gains because you body is becoming gear dependant to increase size and maintain it. if someone can use 300mg of test enanthate per week but eat an extra 500cals & 50 grams of protein versus using 500mg of test and eatting less, who is going to have the harder time keeping gains during pct. this is also a reason why i see more and more people asking about bridging between cycles. bridging is only an excuse to not come completely off gear because you body is to dependant on it to maintain its current size because of undernurishment.

i use very high dosages because of a schedule deficiancy(lack of proper sleep times) and because i have been juicing for a long time and my body just does not react to low dosages anymore. a newbie does not have the excuse of lack of response to gear dosages because they have not used yet or ran a half assed cycle.
i guarantee that if someone on here was running a first time cycle and the popular consensus was for them to run 500mg per week of test, i could have them take a lower amount, listen to exactly what i tell them food intake wise and they will gain more with my lower dosage then at the higher one. there is a on-line trainer that some of you may have heard of or know who goes by the name of doggcrapp and he deals mainly with nutritional deficiencies and not as much on how much gear you take. he has the uncanny ability to take someone who has been training and juicing for years and claims to have reached they plateau or maximum weight limits and within 6 months as long as they follow his advice to a T they will see their largest gains ever regardless of whether they are taking gear or not. it is all about how badly you want to grow and not so much how easy you want to make it. the easy route is to take large dosages of gear but loose it all once you stop because you cant eat enough to maintain any kind of size. if you want it bad enough you will learn how to eat and force yourself to eat more than ever before just like doggcrapp teaches his trainee's to do!!!

Well pin ok I' will tell you this!
My cycle is coming up next month and I will try your advice I will keep an open mind about every thing you just said. I will do 200mg a week of deca and 250 or 500 mg Sustanon with novladex at 10mg ED and fallow a good diet plan with around 450 of protein and 4000 calories a day. Maybe each meal I will try to contains between 250 and 300 calories and between 30 and 40 grams of protein. If the protein or the calories are wrong please let me know?Thanks>

If you give me a diet plan that you say will make you gain I will fallow that to the T too. I really want to see if this works out I rather spend more money on food and less on AAS.

 

[pincrusher]

Well pin ok I' will tell you this!
My cycle is coming up next month and I will try your advice I will keep an open mind about every thing you just said. I will do 200mg a week of deca and 250 or 500 mg Sustanon with novladex at 10mg ED and fallow a good diet plan with around 450 of protein and 4000 calories a day. Maybe each meal I will try to contains between 250 and 300 calories and between 30 and 40 grams of protein. If the protein or the calories are wrong please let me know?Thanks>

If you give me a diet plan that you say will make you gain I will fallow that to the T too. I really want to see if this works out I rather spend more money on food and less on AAS.

captain canuck, start a new thread on this and post all your stats for me including age, height, current weight & approximate body fat percent, work & sleep schedule, amount of training experience and also a complete breakdown of every meal you have planned including the timing of the meals and ALL supplements you plan to take throughout the day such as multi vits, amino's etc.
i also want your steroid usage history if there is any, what you took, how much and for how long.
you can label the thread" the captain & pins experiment" or something like that.
one thing you will need to remember with this is that for it to work, you will need to eat alot of food and you should never during the entire cycle feel hungry at all. if you do then you are not eating enough at each meal.

lets see where we can take this and if everything works out it will be a good example for everyone and there may just be a reward for ya

 

[Captain Canuck]

captain canuck, start a new thread on this and post all your stats for me including age, height, current weight & approximate body fat percent, work & sleep schedule, amount of training experience and also a complete breakdown of every meal you have planned including the timing of the meals and ALL supplements you plan to take throughout the day such as multi vits, amino's etc.
i also want your steroid usage history if there is any, what you took, how much and for how long.
you can label the thread" the captain & pins experiment" or something like that.
one thing you will need to remember with this is that for it to work, you will need to eat alot of food and you should never during the entire cycle feel hungry at all. if you do then you are not eating enough at each meal.

lets see where we can take this and if everything works out it will be a good example for everyone and there may just be a reward for ya

Ok pin give me some time to put it all together.
I have some stuff first to do with work but I got tell February to get this plan down.

Thanks!!!!

 

[Blackbird]

Like I said Pin, I love ya. You are very wise. I'm not going to respond to this any further except to say that after reading your response to my post, ahhh f**k it. I don't want any hard feelings so I'll stop right here. Love, peace, and hair grease.