Long and short esters

[butthole69]

I'm finding that I like short esters more and more. I want to run 50mg testosterone suspension and 50mg trenbolone acetate per day.

I don't want my blood levels to be all over the place and sometimes I'll miss a daily injection. So I was thinking I would inject 1cc test-cyp and 1cc tren-e twice per week in addition to my no ester/ acetate shots.

Does anyone have experience with this sort of approach?

 

[kubes]

I'm finding that I like short esters more and more. I want to run 50mg testosterone suspension and 50mg trenbolone acetate per day.

I don't want my blood levels to be all over the place and sometimes I'll miss a daily injection. So I was thinking I would inject 1cc test-cyp and 1cc tren-e twice per week in addition to my no ester/ acetate shots.

Does anyone have experience with this sort of approach?

Many run there trt blasts that way. Are you planning to cycle off and pct?

 

[Ironbuilt]

Great idea bh69..i can feel a short ester in a day no need to wait for it to work..either it does or doesnt.. ive been doiin that for years.. tren b rocks the no cough for me. Just grabbed another jug..

 

[Enigmatic707]

I'm pretty sure Dudcki27 is the guy to talk to when it comes to this!

 

[kubes]

I think you will like the faster kick start and when you decide to come of if you discontinue the longer ester first its a plus being able to start pct sooner

 

[butthole69]

I might run an hCG cruise soon just to keep my testicles healthy, but I B&C. Even if testosterone didn't increase muscle mass I would B&C.

I appreciate the feedback! If I could find some testosterone undecanoate I would run that along with EQ, and then run Test and Tren susp. over that.

I always thought dudes running propionate because of less bloating were idiots. According to science the hormone is inactive until its ester its cleaved. Maybe some conversion of T to estrogen or other inactive hormones occurs while the ester is still attached. It may just be a placebo effect, but no ester gear seems way stronger.

 

[kubes]

I might run an hCG cruise soon just to keep my testicles healthy, but I B&C. Even if testosterone didn't increase muscle mass I would B&C.

I appreciate the feedback! If I could find some testosterone undecanoate I would run that along with EQ, and then run Test and Tren susp. over that.

I always thought dudes running propionate because of less bloating were idiots. According to science the hormone is inactive until its ester its cleaved. Maybe some conversion of T to estrogen or other inactive hormones occurs while the ester is still attached. It may just be a placebo effect, but no ester gear seems way stronger.

Diet and estrogen control is what seems to cause bloat more often IMO. Good luck

 

[Enigmatic707]

The whole bloat thing with long esters is the build up effect-

After 5 weeks of 700mg test Cyp you'll end up with a shit ton more test in you than 700/week

With Prop you eliminate it much faster so you don't get the "stacking/ compounding" effect

At least this is my theory of why people notice less bloat with short esters- it's simply that they have less in them through our the cycle

 

[kubes]

The whole bloat thing with long esters is the build up effect-

After 5 weeks of 700mg test Cyp you'll end up with a shit ton more test in you than 700/week

With Prop you eliminate it much faster so you don't get the "stacking/ compounding" effect

At least this is my theory of why people notice less bloat with short esters- it's simply that they have less in them through our the cycle

I am on board with that but do you think there is still estrogen playing a role in this since there is more test built up in the system with the longer esters?

 

[Elvia1023]

I'm finding that I like short esters more and more. I want to run 50mg testosterone suspension and 50mg trenbolone acetate per day.

I don't want my blood levels to be all over the place and sometimes I'll miss a daily injection. So I was thinking I would inject 1cc test-cyp and 1cc tren-e twice per week in addition to my no ester/ acetate shots.

Does anyone have experience with this sort of approach?

Regardless how you run this your hormones levels will be all over the place anyway. Your taking susp and ace daily and miss shots so your up and down. Although these are in your system longer than many think. If your gonna run aas like this I would recommend adding in the longer esters as you plan. This way you will have a constant throughout your cycle. I see you blast and cruise so even reason to do so as you can just continue using the long esters when you stop the others.

You feel the short or no ester stuff more simply because they are in and out really fast. Then you have the ester weight that can be a factor and it's release timing. Everyone likes different things so it's good you have found something you like... I plan to use short esters a lot more in the future too.

The frequency of injections is a key factor in possible aromatization. An example if you inject 700mg test e in 7 daily 100mg shots over 1 week there should be less estrogen conversion compared to one big shot of 700mg. Increased aromatization would lead to more bloat so injection frequency is a factor. But as highlighted above it's mainly (literally 99%) diet that will dictate bloat.

HCG could be run in some many effective ways. I try to use as little as ancillaries as possible. To send signals I think as little as 100-200mcg per week is more than enough. Although running it in cycles is a good method too. I used to do that but got fed up and it hasn't negatively effected me in anyway. HCG can cause a huge estrogen rebound and I would not take it unless you are running an AI with it.

 

[butthole69]

I am on board with that but do you think there is still estrogen playing a role in this since there is more test built up in the system with the longer esters?

I don't think it's estrogen. Part of it is that enanthate is like 65% testosterone by weight so people end up using more without realizing it.

Even taking the fact that you get more homrone per mg with steroid base, I think steroid bases are stronger.

The only ROA that has a faster onset that IM is IV injections. I'd bet that IM wintrol peaks faster and harder than oral winstrol.

With esterfied steroids, your body needs to metabolize them before it can use them. With testosterone base you get the whole dose available to you right away. My guess is that test base has an active life of 6-10 hours with a peak 1-3 hours in. Obviously this varies a lot depending on the amount of oil injected and the type of solvents used. Trenbolone base should have an even shorter half life than testosterone base because trenbolone doesn't bind to SHBG and testosterone is highly bound.

 

[Elvia1023]

I am on board with that but do you think there is still estrogen playing a role in this since there is more test built up in the system with the longer esters?

Exactly. Higher test levels and more aromatization. Added to that bulking diets and high sodium. Sounds simple but if a guy really lean took test with loads of AI's and a clean diet he would not bloat up like you see many do. Estrogen is key when it comes to test. Plus the individuals starting position (body type, slin sensitivity etc). I think the key is balance... using the right amount of AI. Loads over do the AI's and it effects their possible gains, joints, flatness etc. Whilst the opposite (no AI's) just bloat up and due to the higher estrogen possibily more fat over time.

 

[butthole69]

You feel the short or no ester stuff more simply because they are in and out really fast. Then you have the ester weight that can be a factor and it's release timing. Everyone likes different things so it's good you have found something you like... I plan to use short esters a lot more in the future too.

I think you're right but it's not quite that simple. ROA can change a drug's effects

 

[Elvia1023]

I don't think it's estrogen. Part of it is that enanthate is like 65% testosterone by weight so people end up using more without realizing it.

Even taking the fact that you get more homrone per mg with steroid base, I think steroid bases are stronger.

The only ROA that has a faster onset that IM is IV injections. I'd bet that IM wintrol peaks faster and harder than oral winstrol.

With esterfied steroids, your body needs to metabolize them before it can use them. With testosterone base you get the whole dose available to you right away. My guess is that test base has an active life of 6-10 hours with a peak 1-3 hours in. Obviously this varies a lot depending on the amount of oil injected and the type of solvents used. Trenbolone base should have an even shorter half life than testosterone base because trenbolone doesn't bind to SHBG and testosterone is highly bound.

But the ester weight as little effect on things. Obviously there is more testosterone per 100mg so in a sense they are stronger. So approx 100% no ester, prop 85%, test e/c 65-70% etc. Then you have the short acting nature of test s or tren a so more of a 'boost' in a sense. Longer esters are known as having more of an anabolic effect over time. I personally think long/short esters each have pro's and cons but hormones are hormones and they are all effective. Everyone likes different things... I am more a long ester type of guy due to laziness

 

[OuchThatHurts]

No point in going any further. The answer is already in this thread.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

The whole bloat thing with long esters is the build up effect-

After 5 weeks of 700mg test Cyp you'll end up with a shit ton more test in you than 700/week

With Prop you eliminate it much faster so you don't get the "stacking/ compounding" effect

At least this is my theory of why people notice less bloat with short esters- it's simply that they have less in them through our the cycle

:yeahthat:

 

[butthole69]

Ignoring ester weight, 700mg per week is 700mg per week. Testosterone is not active until the ester is cleaved - at which point it has a serum half life of a couple hours. Testosterone enanthate becomes testerone base before it binds to an AR receptor.

Test-e is more fat soluble than testosterone base. There are also lipase and aromatase enzymes in fat cells. That could mean the 1000s of milligrams of test-e youre injecting is sitting dissolved in your fat and is slowly being turning into active testosterone in your fat (some of which then turns into estrogen in the very same adipose tissue before it can circulate and have an effect as testosterone). Testosterone base is less lipid soluble so less of it will dissolve into your adipose tissue.

If testosterone enanthate exerted an anabolic effect for the entire two weeks it stayed in your system it would be much much stronger than testosterone base. But the enanthate just sits there and is released at a steady (hopefully) rate through lipase activity.

 

[Elvia1023]

Ignoring ester weight, 700mg per week is 700mg per week. Testosterone is not active until the ester is cleaved - at which point it has a serum half life of a couple hours. Testosterone enanthate becomes testerone base before it binds to an AR receptor.

Test-e is more fat soluble than testosterone base. There are also lipase and aromatase enzymes in fat cells. That could mean the 1000s of milligrams of test-e youre injecting is sitting dissolved in your fat and is slowly being turning into active testosterone in your fat (some of which then turns into estrogen in the very same adipose tissue before it can circulate and have an effect as testosterone). Testosterone base is less lipid soluble so less of it will dissolve into your adipose tissue.

If testosterone enanthate exerted an anabolic effect for the entire two weeks it stayed in your system it would be much much stronger than testosterone base. But the enanthate just sits there and is released at a steady (hopefully) rate through lipase activity.

You don't think longer esters have a stacking effect? When your say 10 weeks in your test will be higher and as a result e2 is likely gonna be higher due to the higher aromatization (compared to a cycle of test p eod injs for example). 700mg test is 700mg test in a general sense but excluding ester attached you don't think the dosing frequency makes a difference either? The dosing frequency imo can effect numerous processes and just the general feel of a cycle.

The obvious difference in cycles is also guys just do 500mg test p per week or 500mg test e per week. I don't know anyone who calculates ester weight and deducts it. So 500mg test p will always be more test per mg than longer esters. That is all basic stuff as you know but accounts for the difference in most peoples feel on a cycle (they are using more test). That's why most think shorter esters are stronger as they are doing different amounts thinking they are the same.

You don't think dosing frequency will effect aromatization? The body definitely reacts differently to one massive shot of test as opposed to 7 daily smaller injs. I think this is all abit silly though as differences are minor. Sure esters are only there to effect the steroids water solubility (increase fat solubility). You are spot on about test being inactive when esterification takes place. It's only active once it hits the blood. As you say 700mg test is 700mg test.

I can see what you are getting with everything (and agree) but I think your way overthinking things. I think everyone should just experiment and find what they like most. Fact is there isn't much difference with the different esters in regards to results. It's just finding what fits you best imo. Most guys I know who have started using short or esterless gear prefer it. You do feel more of a boost... but they obviously have to be run everyday that's brings about the con for most users. I think rotating or combining both is usually the best way. I see suspensions are in now and seem to be getting more and more popular. I personally like the convenience of longer esters but will be starting a short blast soon comprising of test p, tren a and npp

 

[butthole69]

I'm saying that test-e won't stack because it has an active life of 2 weeks. It does not have an active life of several weeks. Test-e is not an anabolic hormone - it is a prohormone to testosterone base. Yes there is a stacking effect like you mentioned but because of that there is also a much lower dose at the start of the cycle so it balances out to be the same amount of total testosterone over 12 weeks as propionate injections. That is why people front load long esters.

I agree long esters are much more convenient. You can stick 5cc in both glutes and that's a 3000mg dose right there. Split to 5cc in each glute monday/thursday that can be an entire bodybuilder's cycle in two injections. I'm guessing its almost impossible to get a steady level of testosterone using suspension - there will be peaks even with 3x a day injects. If you're only using short esters you need to inject lots more oil, which causes more scar tissue build up in the muscle (that could lead to a muscle tear?), and short esters tend to be more expensive mg per mg. Short esters sometimes have lots of solvents in them. I hope some retard UGL doesn't start using paint thinners or some other cheap solvent in their high mg "cut blend."

 

[Elvia1023]

It's a known fact test e will build up over time and will be in the system well after 2 weeks post injection. I can't be bothered looking up studies but there are tonnes of them. The stacking effect of long esters and overall dose would only add to the length of time artificial test is active in the body after that last injection.

Test E is not an anabolic hormone

Frontloading long esters is stupid imo but sure many do it.

I'm saying that test-e won't stack because it has an active life of 2 weeks. It does not have an active life of several weeks. Test-e is not an anabolic hormone - it is a prohormone to testosterone base. Yes there is a stacking effect like you mentioned but because of that there is also a much lower dose at the start of the cycle so it balances out to be the same amount of total testosterone over 12 weeks as propionate injections. That is why people front load long esters.

I agree long esters are much more convenient. You can stick 5cc in both glutes and that's a 3000mg dose right there. Split to 5cc in each glute monday/thursday that can be an entire bodybuilder's cycle in two injections. I'm guessing its almost impossible to get a steady level of testosterone using suspension - there will be peaks even with 3x a day injects. If you're only using short esters you need to inject lots more oil, which causes more scar tissue build up in the muscle (that could lead to a muscle tear?), and short esters tend to be more expensive mg per mg. Short esters sometimes have lots of solvents in them. I hope some retard UGL doesn't start using paint thinners or some other cheap solvent in their high mg "cut blend."