Help with cutting cycle

[l3i0hazard]

Hey so this is my first post...I've really benefitted a lot from the very informative posts that have been posted here - I wish I would have known about this place before I did my first cycle.

Ok so, I'm 33 and have been lifting for about 1.5 years...I did a 10.5 week cycle of Test Prop a while ago and have decided to do another one but this time I would like to get rid of the bloating that I had and get as lean as possible and put on a little size like 8-10lbs only. I don't want to draw as much attention to myself in the gym from too great of size increase...but if it happens fine...I gained 22lbs and a lot of strength (200lbs at 5'10")...bench went up 35lbs to 315 but I had more in me. I was horrible about eating and got way too drunk too often - the next time I want to do it right.

Ok so one of the sources with a website from the steroid sources section is selling this cutting cycle. Can anyone comment on this? Know of a better one?

Week 1 to 13: 10mg Nolvadex
Week 1 to 16: 0.25 arimidex EOD
Week 1 to 8: 3000-5000ius of HCG every 4th week
Week 1 to 8: 50mg of Prop ED
Week 1 to 8: 50mg of winny ED
Week 1 to 10: 50mg of proviron ED
wk 13 - 40mg nolva+ 100mg clomid
wk 14 - 30mg nolva+ 50mg clomid
wk 15 - 20mg nolva+ 50mg clomid

My PCT really sucked...it took a long time for me to return to normal however I now seem to feel a lot better than before I started my first cycle so I guess the liquid Clomid worked. I only did over the counter stuff at the end like 6-0X0 and Tribulus but my pecs were too jiggly - I thought gyno at first but there was no itchiness...I went from 13% fat to 19% so I guess a lot of it was just fat. I cut out alcohol and got strict with my diet and now I am totally fine - like I said I actually feel better now than before I did my first cycle.

Ok....so I actually really liked the Test. Prop...I won't do anything that stays in my system and can be detected too long so Cyp,Enanthate,Tren is out...I'll deal with the pain in order to get cleaner faster.

From what I have read the HCG sounds like a great thing to use because my balls totally shrunk while on the Test and I think that is why I lost a lot of gains at the end because it took my body too much time to recover from the cycle.

Also was thinking that week 10-13 I would add Anavar since it's supposed to not disturb the HPTA...but then again I have read that it does...so uncertain about this here...

Ok...lots of questions - would appreciate any advice....Thanks

 

[tee]

There is two schools of thought on when and how to take HCG. For years, everyone took it at the end of their cycles. Now, many take it throughout. Dr. John (Swale), although an asshole, does TRT therapy. He swears by it with his patients taking it throughout and says they have all recovered better. He checks this with blood testing. Anyways, below is his thoughts on taking HCG. He also said that HCG is not needed & can actually do more harm that good unless your cycles are 8 weeks +.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

 

[l3i0hazard]

good advice...

Thanks to the both of you.

Yeah, used to do a lot of cardio but I cut that completely out to save strength and then I ate a lot of bad food - but I also ate a lot of good food too I just augmented it too much with fast food. I actually got down to 178lbs @ 11.5% body fat from running/biking/lifting and using a low fat high carb/protien diet eating every 2.5 hours. I was probably at 10.5% at one point but I didn't get it measured when I was at my leanest - oh and this was natural too...I didn't use any thermogenics so I know what a good diet and cardio can do for me. So I'll be doing lots of cardio, running mostly, next time on this upcoming cycle trying to get below 10.5%.

What the Dr. was explaining about HCG totally makes sense to me. I've heard using HCG can be a little risky because of the possibilty of using too high of a dose but if you keep the doses low it seems like you should be fine. I've heard that HCG can actually give you gyno pretty easily so I guess this is why some people stay away from it. I'm going to give it a try - I really didn't care for what happened to the boys while on the Test and I want to make sure I recover as well as I can at the end and retain as much gains as possible - which should be the goal of everyone using AAS I would think.

Cutting the Arimidex out during PCT seems reasonable as well since starting at week 13 you'd be taking Arimidex, Nolvadex, Clomid, AND the final shot of HCG - that seems a little excessive so I'm comfortable with removing it at the start of PCT.

So have to decide what to do with the HCG...it's half-life is 60 hours so thats 2.5 days... so maybe doing a shot every 3.5 days at 250iu would be good.

Also I don't want to shoot the prop ED so going to EOD.

Alright so the cycle now looks like this:

Week 1 - 8: 0.25 Arimidex EOD
Week 1 - 8: 250ius of HCG every 3.5 days
Week 1 - 10: 50mg of Proviron ED
Week 1 - 13: 10mg Nolvadex

Week 1 - 3: 50mg of Prop EOD
Week 4 - 6: 100mg of Prop EOD
Week 7 - 8: 50mg of Prop EOD

Week 1 - 8: 50mg of Winny ED

Week 13: 40mg nolva + 100mg clomid
Week 14: 30mg nolva + 50mg clomid
Week 15: 20mg nolva + 50mg clomid

How does this look?

 

[tee]

I wouldnt take the Nolvadex or Arimidex unless you need it during the cycle.

 

[l3i0hazard]

I'm not worried about gyno but the reason I would take it would be to keep estrogen and related water weight gain down... Why would you advise removing it?

 

[DragonRider]

I wouldnt take the Nolvadex or Arimidex unless you need it during the cycle.

Since this is a cutting cycle, I believe the thought is to keep water weight at bay. I would drop the HCG since the cycle is so short and keep everything else. But that is JMHO.

Also, I don't know how many people are aware of this, but excessive alcohol consumption such as weekend warriors or alcoholics are prone to do, raises estrogen levels. This is one of the reasons for the infamous beer belly. It's excess estrogen not excess carbs. It's also one of the reasons you can drink so much that willy won't stand at attention. Excess estrogen.

 

[Gettinhuge_pump]

I wouldn't take the HGC either man, you shouldn't need it with the cycle you have laid out.

 

[l3i0hazard]

...

My balls totallly shrank from my last 10.5 week cycle of test prop at 50mg EOD so my thinking is if I keep them from shrinking I will need less time to restore exogenous testosterone production once I quit my cycle. This is the reason why I want to take it - I really don't see the point of using steroids if you are just going to lose a lot of what you gain in the end but then again I don't know how the Winstrol and Proviron are going to help the prop.

How could it hurt to use HCG and the Arimidex?

What reasons are there to not use HCG in the small frequent doses?

and lastly could I add 4 weeks of Anavar at week 10?

 

[DragonRider]

This the reason why I want to take it - I really don't see the point of using steroids if you are just going to lose a lot of what you gain in the end but then again I don't know how the Winstrol and Proviron are going to help the prop.

How could it hurt to use HCG and the Arimidex?

What reasons are there to not use HCG in the small frequent doses?

and lastly could I add 4 weeks of Anavar at week 10?

If you have the cash to spare it wouldn't hurt a thing and would help greatly in the way you suggest. Most people don't have that kind of cash to lay out on a cycle and start looking for things they can save money on.

I think you would really be wasting your money running anavar for the last 4 weeks of your cycle. Anavar is one of those steroids that should be ran longer to see the benefits. Even those that believe one cycle of orals will ruin your liver recommend anavar at 10 weeks minimum.

 

[l3i0hazard]

Thanks for answering again!

The Winstrol is what is going to hurt $-wise...would like to do the injectable stuff but the orals are cheaper. Not sure which one I will use although it would be nice to combine the winstrol and the prop for one injection...

wow run the anavar for 10 weeks starting at week 10? is that safe? I mean I know the liver toxicity of Anavar is not like Dbol so what I mean is how much HTPA suppression will there be? I really wish I knew for sure if Anavar actually did cause suppression probably just safest to assume it does but there seems to be conflicting information on the web so I don't know what is true.

 

[DragonRider]

Thanks for answering again!

The Winstrol is what is going to hurt $-wise...would like to do the injectable stuff but the orals are cheaper. Not sure which one I will use although it would be nice to combine the winstrol and the prop for one injection...

wow run the anavar for 10 weeks starting at week 10? is that safe? I mean I know the liver toxicity of Anavar is not like Dbol so what I mean is how much HTPA suppression will there be? I really wish I knew for sure if Anavar actually did cause suppression probably just safest to assume it does but there seems to be conflicting information on the web so I don't know what is true.

If you want to run anavar. Run it in conjunction with the cycle. It's not really and end of cycle steroid. Winny would be a better end of cycle choice.

 

[KILLA]

Week 1 to 13: 10mg Nolvadex
Week 1 to 16: 0.25 arimidex EOD
Week 1 to 8: 3000-5000ius of HCG every 4th week
Week 1 to 8: 50mg of Prop ED
Week 1 to 8: 50mg of winny ED
Week 1 to 10: 50mg of proviron ED
wk 13 - 40mg nolva+ 100mg clomid
wk 14 - 30mg nolva+ 50mg clomid
wk 15 - 20mg nolva+ 50mg clomid

Hello.....When you guys are talking about 50mg Winny each day, are you talking about the orals or the liquid??

Just doing my research

Thanks

 

[DragonRider]

You can actually do 50 ED with both, but I think most will do injections EOD.

 

[KILLA]

What is the difference in water-based and oil-based Winny?

 

[wolfyEVH]

What is the difference in water-based and oil-based Winny?

one is made in water, the other in oil...thats it.......for future reference, next time you have a question, please start a new thread instead of jumping in, or "hijacking" someone else's thread.

 

[DragonRider]

one is made in water, the other in oil...thats it.......for future reference, next time you have a question, please start a new thread instead of jumping in, or "hijacking" someone else's thread.

Simplistic but true. The only difference is that one uses bacteriostatic water to transport and deliver the steroid and the other uses oil.

Wolfy is right, you get more views and more answers if you start a new thread, plus anyone who has the same question can go right to your thread.

 

[Bizarro]

THAT would be a good username, eh? "Thread Hijacker"

 

[l3i0hazard]

Ok I've changed my mind on this one now... I think it woudl be better to just go with a different steroid that doesn't aromatize that heavily. Oh and I'd be willing to use something that stays detectible for 5 months like Tren or Primo or Parabolan.

I'll start a new thread with the cycle when I figure out a few more aspects about it? Or maybe someone could tell me what a good cycle would be using Parabolan? Without Test too - suposedly you can run it just fine by itself?

 

[DragonRider]

tell me what a good cycle would be using Parabolan? Without Test too - suposedly you can run it just fine by itself?

Don't know where you are getting that information, but in my opinion it is inaccurate.